Mygenius and the deletion of my profile and blogs!!

Latest update on the MG blog, Myles sumarizes and explains in clear english, the site owners seemingly double standards (Yellow and Red card?!! no member has heard of this before!!!), the site being a empty shell driven and invested into by the paying user and the free user!

This is the danger of these online social networking sites, there needs to be some user rights specially if you are a paying member!
---------
Myles Hopkins commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 10:24
I was under the misconception that this was an open-source community. Yes John and Doug came up with the concept and have done a great job in getting it to where it is. They would, however, not be where they are without our contributions. I would like to use Niki's analogy of her restaurant (Niki you know I have a great deal of respect for you so please do not see this as a swipe at you - I am just trying to make a point).

In Niki's restaurant, I as a client walk in and order something. I then pay for what I ordered and hopefully we are both satisfied with the transaction (I have always been satisfied with Niki's value for money). The difference between Niki's restaurant and MG is that Niki did not ask me to order the raw materials, cook the food and serve the guests. This is essence is what happens in MG. MG would be nothing without the ACTIVE participation of its members. We create the content and we serve the other members. Without the wonderful blogs and community interaction that happens within MG, it would be an empty shell.
So yes - John and Doug do own MG but they have to realise that we are all very important stakeholders and without us there would be no product. If we are meant to be an open-source community then let's be one - warts and all. I have been openly attacked by members on MG - these were personal attacks which were uncalled for - yet these members are still members. What did Mike do that was any worse than what these members did. I do not want these members to be banned as I would then not get to know them and I would then not have an idea whether I would want to do business with them or not. We need some serious consistency if we are going to apply "yellow" and "red" cards.

Many of you may recall that Mike and I actually originally started off on the wrong foot but we both soon realised the value that we could bring to each others business. We moved on and we are looking at doing business together.

Please do not see me as a MG slammer. I have always supported this site and within the last month I actually suggested to John that we should discuss me becoming the MG Ambassador for Sandton. I am now having second thoughts about this as I do not want to support a business where the "disruptive innovators" are asked to leave or decide to leave. This would be a very boring site if we did not have people like this.

I am still paying my membership and I will still contribute. All I am saying is that this was wrong and I do not support it.

-- My reply to one of the MyGenius owners
John - no point - you have shown the MG community (paid and free) that they have no rights, not even a right of defence or freedom of speech, maybe you think you are that powerfull to kick a paying consumer off your site with no notice period, maybe your are right or maybe you are wrong, time will tell what this wll cost your site!

Just a point here as you try and grow your site in a tough market, negative publicity like this is no good for any business, the blogs being removed from google searchs means that any member investing in your site must understand their investment is worthless if they do not behave like babies under parental control, this is probaly the most important point you have missed!

I have a lawyer looking at this now based on the above as a paying consumer, he has indicated he might take it on as a test case, winner takes all , lets see , one thing for sure when it hits the web / newspapers I do not think you will get many members signing up for paid membership!

--- The main blog
The owners of a social networking site I was until Friday night (28/11/2008) a paid up member, have decided as below to delete my profile and blogs, no warning except a defamatory PM from John Raath one of the owners was given, calling me "silly", is this what you do to your customer who supports you, the fact that I am a paid subscription member and not a FREE member should be taken into account!

The question here is, how powerfull are these types of site owners, can they do what they like, or should I make this a test case and sue for a unfair business practice?

This is not the first time they have done this (had a issue with a member) and probaly will not be the last, there must be a legal re-course against the site if you are a paid member, you are investing in the site and helping it to grow, so in reverse there should be some protection!

This blog should be a warning to all about not only this site but others you pay to be on, check before signing if you have any rights!

-- what the owner is saying here is that I never contributed to MG in his opinion or any MG member, he forgets I spent R30000.00 with 2 MG members and doing business with 2 other MG members!!
--- Mg site owner John Raath
John Raath commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 23:32
The moderation panel met today and having produced a yellow card, decided a red card was was also needed. I agreed with them.
There's only one focus on this site - as we engage with one another, collaborate, seek opportunities, share ideas - the ethos that guides this is key. We're here to support one another! It's that simple!

----the full blog as of 03/12/2008 - Note some of members comments, they just cannot see a unfair business practice, they could be next, and then?!!!
Gavin Cumming
on I need specific advice on... Add this to my personal post feed
Friday, 28 November 2008 17:45
What just happened ???

All Mike's blogs have disappeared ! And his profile !






Comments
Niki Stevens commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 09:39
My Last word on the matter....

MG is a business. Their product is PEOPLE In my business (my product is hospitality),THE RIGHT OF ADMISSION IS RESERVED. Those who upset others or create discord are refused entry. The decision is MINE. I invested my money and time to build it up. No democratic rules apply here. I make and execute the decision.

My Genius is the same. J & D have the right to refuse admission where and when they see fit. We all know them. They are good decent and extremely intelligent people with too much integrity and have used this right much too sparingly IMHO.

Who are we to decide how they should run THEIR business. We can choose to be customers or not and that is as far as a customer's rights go.

Buy what they offer or vote with your feet but never presume to tell someone how to run their business. You wouldn't appreciate someone doing it to you.
Hugh Knight commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 09:13
Sandra
Read John's comments not far below yours
Pretty clear guidelines
Let's follow Kevin's suggestion and move on to new and better things
Sandra Chersulich commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 08:59
I am watching this blog with immense interest.

Anton,
You keep saying "I think" - obviously supposition.
Then you categorically state "Mike was not a paying member". Have you actually discussed any of this with Mike, John or whoever?
Mike is actually a paid up member.

Let's deal in facts and leave the fantasies out there somewhere.

Like Anil, I believe in fairness and ethics, and I agree with Hugh that we need to know the guidelines.

At the present moment these are not very clear, in fact they are non-existent. We have a situation where members who have made great contributions with regard to time and knowledge are leaving the site, or have been removed. We also have a lot of cat fighting and side swiping, without too much other contributing to MG.

I have personally met both Andre and Mike and am sorry to see them go.
Kevin Somerville commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 08:41
Come on guys. Lets not prolong this blog any longer.

It has done huge damage in so many areas.

Lets just let it die and move on in a positive manner - as we should.

Love and light to you all.

Kevin

John Raath commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 08:37
Thanks for some really great contributions to this discussion. Ann - I've missed your wise counsel.

Believe me I'm not a great referee - it's just not my style. But to ensure that everyone benefits from the MyGenius experience there has to be a level of moderation. In general a yellow card is a polite request for one to review one's contribution if it appears to be against the ethos (support, encouragement, respect, sharing, business growth). Where someone attempts to bulldoze the ethos, ignore the yellow card or in any way damage the experience for all other members - and only after serious review by objective outsiders - a red card appears to be appropriate.

But believe me - I prefer to have those cards locked away. I would rather be scoring goals and be in a winning team than have the referee interupt the game.
Hugh Knight commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 08:26
Waht we need from Doug and John is a guideline as the things that will get you a red card.
Anton Dique commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 08:20
He WAS warned, they however didnt warn or consult US (the other members)...
Anil Salick commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 06:39
I am all for fairness and ethics.

I agree that this is John and Doug's business, and many of us love and respect them dearly. We are however 'stakeholders' and have a vested interest in this business. I assert as my one of my posts below stated, that their decisions is not subject to a democracy. I fully sustain the owners/ moderation committee. That does not mean that fairness does not prevail. If Mike was given clear warnings, reminders of the standards, his actions of violations...then I say the process was fair and ethical.

It is the absence of this "disciplinary process" which concerns me. That there is clear evidence of his violations does not merit that he be booted without warning and consultation. If that is the case and many here feel that is cool, then maybe this is the wrong vehicle for me.

Anton Dique commented: Wednesday, 03 December 2008 05:16
Mmmmmmm I think what happened, happened with a reason, Mike was warned, and I bet it wasn't just once and in the face of that he still climbed down the MG owners' throats and said he'd sue them if they deleted his profile, in essence making their private conversations public.

Look, Mike was a busy bee in the forums, I sometimes laughed, cried, wanted to hide in fear and at times got disgruntled about his comments. He did take it too far at times and he knows my thoughts about that and we kinda had that love / hate relationship.

I think John listened to the community, Mike was not a paying member, as in one of his latest blogs he said that he's going to budget for a MG Membership. So it MIGHT be that a certain amount of paying and non-paying members complained about Mike, which made John decide that he should do what he did.

Would I have deleted his profile? Mmmmmmm it goes 50/50 depending on which foot I got out of bed with that morning...
Laurinda Wernars commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 22:11
Andre there are a number of ways of looking at what happened here. Yes he was a Customer and a paying on but I think we've all come across customers that we eventually cut lose because they are just not worth the money they pay? Would I want my business publicly insulted in the way that MG has? Would I continue to have that person as my customer? I do agree with you however, that some in the past and even presently continue to be even more "out there" than Mike was and nothing has been done about them. If there is a yellow / red card policy it should be stated quite clearly what constitutes a transgression and what will be done about it. Until this went down I wasn't even aware that there was a such a thing as a "moderation panel" on MG.
Andre Besselaar commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 21:47
Thanks Norio, needed that, feeling better.

Now can we trade ages?:-)
Norio De Sousa commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 21:25
Andre, I can relate to your position (flat broke, no possessions, etc). Chin up, this too shall pass. Don't let your financial situation bring down your attitude. You've made it this far, you'll make it further.
Andre Besselaar commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 21:23
Apologies all,

Did not want to get angry, and don't want to leave things like that.

Peace
Andre Besselaar commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 21:17
My very last comments, and a question:

If Mike, as a paying member was booted,

Why were certain non paying members that went much further not booted?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My fascination with Swiss goes back to the 90'. I worked for 16 years for a Swiss company in SA through the worst of the SA changes and doing it their way in SA as a consultant has served me well.

Its not the Swiss that is the issue here but the fascinating way the progressive companies across the world is re-organizing and changing to closed social network systems and letting employees as well as customers dictate business.

Oh never mind, MG is a business then, so apply management style etc. then. So Mike was technically fired. No Notice, no disciplinary hearing, no right to defend himself, no right to representation? Booted while on holiday in the Kruger National Park? Its a very familiar scenario in SA business and gives HR consultants a nice income going to try and reduce the fees at the CCMA.

As an employee of this business Mike had to pay the company, but then he is a customer. So now a customer was fired. huh? That was a major change in SA since I left.

I take exception and protest that everyone has a right to freedom of speech. Graphically, minimalistic. I don't suppose Ann and some here saw that.
No, No Mr Besselaar, this is a company, protests, expression, opinions etc are not allowed. I get the "Dear Andre" Letter from management. I leave before I get fired.

(Sorry, airplane metaphors does not apply as we are in a virtual space here, 12 000 or so? Compare apples with apples.)

Geez, I love MG, really, but I need some support from MG as we are flat broke, have no possessions, the economic situation is bad here as well, layoffs are common and some positive help would have been nice.

Instead the system just crashes and I get shot down!

Well that, I guess, is MG, warts and all!!

See you on Bluehouse.com, that is if we can afford the fees and qualify!




Rose Homan commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 21:00
I suggest that everyone takes a look at & comments on Pierre Fourie's blog 'Boast a Little' under the "I have insights to share" heading.

This is a FAR better way to expend your energy.

Energy tends to replicate itself be it negative or positive.
Norio De Sousa commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 20:55
Well said Ann, a very balanced perspective. Couldn't have said it better if I tried!

Thanks John for running a great community. I'm behind all of your decisions so far. I understand how tough it can be and you're doing a sterling job.

And I'm not gat-kruiping. I run my own community and have been a member of enough to understand the politics. It's harder than most people seem to think.
Rose Homan commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 20:15
Nicely put Ann.
Bettina Horvath commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 19:52
I just have to chirp in. I've been following this all with a good deal of amusement I have to say. At times it would seem the behaviours shown are worse then those in my 4yr old's class....
I do want to just say that I totally agree with Ann.
Everybody always has a choice. Not necessarily as to what happens to us but how we react to what happens to us is ALWAYS our choice. There's no need to throw tantrum's, they don't get you anywhere, can be clearly seen in all these so-called mudslinging blogs.

I think I understand where Mike's coming from in some way but only to a point, it's been quite a bit too much for my liking lately and more resembling a really big tantrum played out on the internet. Thus I've started to ignore it. Do this with my son too and works quite well.

There's two little trolls in everyone and everything, the good one and the bad one. The one you feed (= give attention) will be the one who rules your life.

PS Andre... I can understand your fascination with Switzerland at the moment and how great it all is there. At the same time they live in a box there and hardly look out of it, I've become claustrophobic over there (remember I am from neighbour Austria) and over time I think it will probably get to you as well. Unless of course you don't mingle with the average people too much but rather with driven individuals and I think that will probably keep you from getting down by the enormous small-mindedness and intolerance to anything other than what is. Anyway ... don't want to take away from the great experience you are having right now, just saying, that there is another viewpoint with regards to living in Europe. Have fun!
Riaan Coetzee commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 17:57
Well said Ann - and a more positive vibe would sure be a good thing as well.
Ann Williams commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 17:27
Hi Andre

But Mike HAS had his R95's worth...! (He even says so himself but it hasn't stopped him complaining regularly.) One of my points is that this isn't actually to do with customer service. Let's face it, even if I was flying by SwissPort (? the Swiss airlines?), they'd make very sure that if I started shouting at other passengers and making a nuisance of myself or endangering others, that they would take control very quickly indeed. (And I suspect that John would have been quite happy to refund him his money if he had asked for it - it looks like he chose to vent in his own blog instead of doing this though. His choice.)

Another point is that it is entirely John's choice as to what kind of environment he may wish to make his product (MG). Why should he have to have the usual online community ethos if he doesn't see it that way? (Most online communities leave me stone cold anyway with people writing aimless drivel or people climbing into each other as if they were cats in a street brawl.)

And if John doesn't want to take part on a regular basis, well it could be his loss, but it is still his choice. It is up to him to attract the kind of people and communications that he wishes to have. If he wants to control it to some extent that's also his decision; as is how he does so. (I know this may not be quite what you want to hear considering all that has gone down recently and I will personally be sorry to see you go.) The bottomline is that it is John's business and it's his decisions and consequences - he isn't an elected official.

As for listening to one's customer requirements'.... Sure, there are things about MG that I would like to see changed. There are of course many ways that one can handle this type of scenario, with some of the more meaningful ways being:
1. Speak to the owner and give them suggestions. (But don't get angry if they don't change them, it's their business, not ours.)
2. Leave. Maybe also don't come back again.
3. Complain very specifically and if one is not happy then get one's money back.
4. Compete with them. Ie. Make your own similar products with all of the things included that you want to see and do with it. (I had suggested that to Mike that because he makes his money from the internet and does programming, that rather than complain about MG that he makes and runs his own similar product as he can then do all of the things that he wants to do with it.)
5. Don't participate anymore, or gear down one's participation.
6. Make useful additions to the blog/s that have been posted asking for ideas.
7. Take part in the MG Think Tank when invited and the meetings that have been held to get a better idea of what can be done differently.

Personally I am just hoping that there will be a more positive vibe in MG blogs in the near future as there is still amazing business being done behind the scenes.
Elise Ruddle commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 17:15
Spot on Ann.


Andre Besselaar commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 16:49
Ann,

Over here in Switzerland, when you do not get the service you should by the Swiss community standards, they give it away free even before you complain and complaining is seen as part of keeping up the standards of the system. They even vote on community issues 4 times a year as a Nation. (I had a free ride in a taxi because he missed the turnoff, free internet for 8 days because they could not connect me in an hour, even though they managed eventually etc.)

A social community is not a business, neither is a social business community, its a community that generates business. Even businesses are not run like this anymore. I am not even going to expand on this as it is now world wide common knowledge as how these systems do work and don't. Best examples I can give quickly is Proctor and Gamble as a company and Bluehouse.com, a business social environment created by IBM and Google.

Since the 90's when these networks started the community was always and still is, the first to be consulted in contentious situations and it was always sorted by the community.

Turn the concept around, Community generates business and so is a business, not business rules a community and generates business and you have what is happening right now and has been happening for a while.

In any case, CRM established the concept that the customer shows the way by expressing their needs and a company fulfills these needs, old news.

Give a community the functionality and freedom to express, allow freedom of speech that forms the fundamentals of a person's rights, be tolerant and show others that don't get it the way, and you have the recipe right.

Must dash


Hugh Knight commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 16:23
Ann
Well summed up!
Ann Williams commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 16:12
This and Mike's external blog (find the link in Ian Frank's post on this blog) has brought up some interesting things for me....

I don't know why some members/previous members think that once they have paid some money (in this case a rather meagre R95 a month which is darn good value for what you can get for it if you put in a little time and effort), that they can then do what they please.

If we go for a meal at a restuarant, we pay for the meal and hopefully behave ourselves according to the societal norms. Once we have looked at the menu, maybe had a sample (in MG, we even have a free trial membership period) and then have ordered (in MGs case, signed up), it is our own problem if we change our minds and decide that we don't want to eat some of the meal (make use of everything that MG offers).

If we have an specific idea of how things may be done a little better, then we can quietly approach management and make a useful suggestion in a manner that it may considered by the owner. It may then be taken up - OR NOT. (It is after all the restuarant owner's decision as it is their business.)

Most of us wouldn't then go to the manager of the restuarant and start shouting at the top of our voice that we now personally find the food not to our liking and that everyone in the restuarant is stupid to even think of ordering the stuff? (After all you ordered it in the first place knowing exactly what it was.)

And most people wouldn't then dream of starting to rip the restuarant apart and beating up other patrons which is then followed by a visit to the lawyer to try to sue the restaurant because they politely asked you to leave! (Never mind going to the media and placing copy saying what a bunch of idiots the restuarant was for even daring to ask you to consider their other clients as well as listing some of the complaints that other patrons have given.)

Yet this seems to be the equivalent of what is actually happening here. I think it's quite weird and quite frankly mind-boggling.

Maybe we should bear a few things in mind here:

1. This is John's business and MG is NOT a democracy. John can ask anyone to leave if he wants to. It's his right to do so.

2. MG is NOT about pushing the limits of freedom of speech, but about professionalism in 'meeting' people to do business with. (As Clare has said it clearly with: "I can see who I won't be doing business with.")

3. MG is NOT a political rally or a drama society and the blogs aren't a stage for us to ramble and haggle on (never mind some of the blatant 'aggro' that seems to have become quite a regular feature this year). The whole ethos of MG is for it's members to help each other out, enjoy good communication, and to do better business.

From what I have seen of John in the last year-and-a-half that I have been a paying member is that he has handled a variety of issues that have come up with members in an extremely gentle and even-handed way - especially considering that he has had his business lambasted (easily to the extent where he could probably quite happily have sued and would have won with no contention) by a handful of people who seem to have an axe to grind.

Let's hope that we will see things on MG calm down over the year end and get going again with the things that John has up his sleave for the beginning of 2009.
Laurinda Wernars commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 14:50
I agree Anil.
Anil Salick commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 12:49
It's sad what's happening.
Andre Besselaar commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 12:11
Thanks all,

No Hugh, no significance, just mistakenly posted this in my haste instead of a white square, will correct soon.

Thanks for understanding and respecting our decision, my wife and I was up all night debating this as we are a close knit team and MG also had a profound effect on her, not just me.

We have faced very tough decisions to leave our SA life behind at our ages and it's very tough here as we are behind in our thinking and also need to catch up on languages.

When we commit to something like we did to MG, we commit fully. But equally we need the benefit of our commitment to progress.

Things will take a new direction, MG will survive and thrive and we will be back. But right now, unfortunately we cant help with the changeover, wish we could.

Reconcile, think/fall forward, move on etc. Time waits for nobody


Carla Maritz commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 11:26
Interesting stuff !I wonder if I can blog.....as I'm now a explorer ...testing 1 2 3.........
Leo van der Walt commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:51
My Genius as a forum has really meant a great deal for me personally and for the business.

The on-line activity has lead to various off-line meetings. During the meetings a wealth of ideas are usually forthcoming, sometimes too much to process and implement, not complaining.

My estimate is that as a vendor, we have received more than a 100 visitors in the recent past, source MG and MG referrals.

We have dealt with various MG members being suppliers to us and substantial purchases were made, capital goods as well as consumables.

We are busy building programs with some MG members to enhance their offering, using our facility as a base to roll out their services. Division of labour as a principle is working well in this regard.

My take on MG is that some businesses or individuals gain or expect to gain more value from an e-platform, etc. To me this is an invaluable way of getting our brand known and will seek to do this wherever we can.

Business is concluded between people, people make the decisions and I want to meet those people. Again MG suits me to freely communicate with individuals and decision makers.

Ultimately we are dealing with people and buildings relationships. An important lesson learnt regarding relationships.
There are three legs to our relationship, you, me and the relationship. You squeeze me, you squeeze the relationship. I squeeze you, I squeeze the relationship. Thus let's not squeeze each other.

Hugh Knight commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:44
Andre
Assuming you put it there, what does the new "pic" signify?
Bland Switzerland?
Faceless one?
About to depart?
Blank sheet?
All of the above?
Garrick Deutschmann commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:36
I will miss your contribution here, Andre.

I respect your choice to leave.
Hugh Knight commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:33
Myles
Liesl left some months ago
Myles Hopkins commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:31
We will miss you Andre - I will definitely stay in touch. What is happening here? Are alternative points of view not encouraged? Should we all just be sheep? I have a saying "Only those people who stand at the edge of the lake and throw stones will cause a ripple".

So now we have Andre leaving, Mike Shraga booted, Walter Pike out and Mike Said not sure that he really wants to come back. We do not hear as much from such great bloggers such as Tess Rodrigues, Sefton Balkind, Liesl Schoonraad, Ann Williams, Jolandie Rust, etc.

We really need to have a sincere look at whether MG is going forwards or backwards.
Hugh Knight commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:29
What was the offence, Andre?
The multiple blog for free speech?
That would be too ironic!
Andre Besselaar commented: Tuesday, 02 December 2008 10:20
Bye all!!

My "Dear Andre letter also arrived!" :-)

Protests are out, otherwise things are OK between me and MG, it has just has become too stressful to keep up with blogging for nothing and we are under a lot of stress here as they don't fool around here with the past but work into the future.

Thanks for having a great influence in my life

Have a blessed Xmas and a happy new year

God Bless.

Kind Regards

Andre

PS.

If any of you want to stay in touch please use my Gmail address: andre.besselaar@gmail.com

Thanks!
Jenny Williamson commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 22:03
After perusing a few mud-spattered blogs, I've edited out most of my profile and changed my photo - I'm now travelling the info highway incognito.

I feel more at risk of being trampled underfoot here, by adult business folk, than I did in the Serengeti travelling amid 500 000 wild animals.

Maybe I'll be lucky here and just get caught in some totally harmless, reputation building, spittle covered crossfire being exchanged between a few well-meaning, kind-natured, absolutely genius bloggers.

My Genius? Nope - mine is way above this.

Rob Corkill commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 16:27
Thanks, Ian.

Rather odd, though, that Mike has omitted the supposedly defamatory PM from John, where he complimented Mike and invited him to join the think-tank.

Hmmm.........
Andre Besselaar commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 15:50
Freedom of speech is a fundamental human right


Ian Franks commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 15:21
Mike has picked up this blog from google and sent me a blog he has done on this.
Mikes Blog

I also use google alerts for my name and this blog has been picked up by them.
I hope a win-win situation can come out of this.
Colleen Muskat commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 15:08
I found him thought provoking. I never knew when he was only pretending to be turgid.
Rob Corkill commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 14:12
Ian,

You're right, as most of the people here know, Mike was contacted and, before being given the yellow card, was complimented by John for his business skills and contributions, but was asked to tone it down. He was also invited to join the MG think-tank.

For whatever reason, he posted John's PM to him in a blog, gave it a totally negative spin, and threatened to sue MG.

Despite the fact that many pointed out to him that John's PM was more complimentary than derogatory, he did not respond to the comments.

In my opinion, he overstepped the mark.
Kevin Somerville commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 13:27
You're going to have to update the picture on your profile Gavin. You wearing an army helmet.

I've been wondering what would happen if you started a blog that was REALLY contrivertial. Would you get any response at all or would the military be called in. Suppose you don't really want to find out do you? LOL
Gavin Cumming commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 12:32
Started wearing an army helmet to the office now ! LOL
Kevin Somerville commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 11:47
I don't know what you do Gavin but every time you write the most innocuous blog you create a third world war. It must be something in the water:-)


Clare Appleyard commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 11:38
I just love being able to read a blog and see with such clarity who I wouldn't want to do business with. It's fascinating.
Sandra Chersulich commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 11:02
Thanks, Gavin.

THAT crack of dawn (8.00 am) is GOOD!

See u there.
Gavin Cumming commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 11:00
You are right Sandra,

It's such a pity the responses aren't directed at the topic/subject but seem to end up directed at the person.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether viewed as positive or negative, it's just an opinion and after all, who say's it's right or wrong ? It's just an opinion!

Here's hoping the mud slinging comes to an end and we can all be professional about this and future blogs.
All go have a cup of tea, settle down and be nice to one another.

Sandra, hope to see you at the crack of dawn (8am) tomorrow. Welcome back !
Sandra Chersulich commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 10:34
Thank you, Anil.

It's good to be back.
Anil Salick commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 10:29
Welcome back Sandra;-)
Scott MacDonald commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 10:28
It would seem that, as I predicted in a blog that has since been removed, should someone who fulfils specific role in a group leave that group, someone else within that group will step up to the plate and fill that vacant role. I just had no idea that the role would be filled so quickly, nor with somebody so vicious.

Though I make this comment, I am not inviting a personal attack, but I am anticipating it. Play the ball, not the man!
Sandra Chersulich commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 09:51
Wow!

I've been offline for the past 10 days (thanks to Telkom) and have walked back into a war zone.

Gavin, I bet you never imagined this kind of response to your two questions. How sad that this blog has turned into a slanging match.

Is it really so difficult to respect each others views and opinions? How boring life would be if we all thought the same way. We are all unique and entitled to our own opinions. However, I don't believe this entitles anyone to be rude and obnoxious to anyone else. The tone of MG is being lowered and becoming very unprofessional with these types of comments, more fitting for Facebook, etc., in my opinion.

Some time ago a wise man (I think it was Mike Said) reminded us that the comments we make and opinions we pass will colour the judgement of the people who might be thinking of doing business with us.

Perhaps we should all be thinking of this.
Debbie Wiblin commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 08:33
Yvonne

Do you think that you are superior to others because you pay a monthly fee?????
No you are not!!!!
Its your choice!!!!
As you state its between John and Mike, so dont get involved!!!!
Dont threaten me or any other member!!!!
You will be the one who will suffer!!!!!
By the way i dont need your input on my vote!!!
Who do you think you are!!!!
You never make any sense!!!
You like to stir crap and then gatkryp!!!
Most of your responses dont make any sense!!!!
SO JUST BE WARNED!!!!! BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY AND STATE!! YOU ARE NOT COVERED BY MG!!!!!
Yvonne van Eck commented: Monday, 01 December 2008 07:40
Debbie

I am by no means singing a different tune
I am EXTREMELY happy Milke is gone -
read what I wrote before you comment -
I stated the obvious - I only saw a negative side of mike -
but unlike you I do concede to the fact that two MGs whom I know and respect,
DO know a different side to Mike,
I dont and I stand by how I feel!
but this is not about me-
this is between John (MG) and Mike
but I personally have to choice to support John in his decision
as you choose not to

and btw - as a non paying member your vote does not count

For the record -
this is that very last comment of yours I will comment on
I do not need negative people like you in my life and
will not respond to anything YOU have to say...
consider yourself invisible-
but be carefull what you say, with the new red card system being introduced


Debbie Wiblin commented: Sunday, 30 November 2008 23:13
Yvonne

You were one of the first to shout your "hoorays" when Mike and his blogs were deleted!!!!!
Now you sing quite a different tune!!!!
Are "YOU SCARED" of being sued for your comments!!!
I would be careful if i was you as you seem to be rubbing a lot of people up the wrong way and then want to drop the subject!!!!!
Take responsibility for what you say on a blog/post!
Dont at a later stage change your tune!

Myles

I VOTE FOR MIKE TO STAY!!!!
I think MG has handled it in a very unprofessional manner!
Mike brought good points/blogs to this site and excitement!
A lot of members seem to echo the same feeling "bring him back" or else they will resign!
If people didnt like what he had to say that can ignore his blogs!
No one is forced to participate!
As stated, people liked to push Mikes buttons and then make him the "rotten egg"!


Debbie
Yvonne van Eck commented: Sunday, 30 November 2008 21:42
Ok...
it is no secret that personally I am delighted that the person who caused the most negativity in MG is gone

I totally accept the fact that there was another side to Mike - unfortunately not a side that I have ever seen - in fact how many have in fact seen a different side to Mike?

My question is this - for a man who was so negatively outspoken to anyone elses ideas and mostly so aimed at MG - how do we know what went down between Mike and John? John is too much of a gentleman to discuss what went on in their conversations, that I can only assume that John has very definite reason to do what he has done - Mike only posted a very small part of what I considered a very positive message from John and then turned it nasty with threats of legal action etc?.... surely this is between the owners of the site and Mike?

lets just move on and beyond...
Ian Franks commented: Sunday, 30 November 2008 20:03
I have always thought that businesses are autocracies, not democracies. The boss listens to everyones opinion and then makes up his/her mind.
What consultation that happens is always at their discretion. For an active member like Mike I would expect that he was contacted and told of the consequences of his actions.
Myles Hopkins commented: Sunday, 30 November 2008 16:32
Just a thought - if we are a community such as we believe that we are, should it not then be a democratic community? Should we not have all been given the chance to vote whether Mike should be booted or not? There is a function on MG to do a survey - let the community vote who it wants in and who it wants out with the majority ruling. So let's vote.

I vote for Mike to be reinstated.
Garrick Deutschmann commented: Sunday, 30 November 2008 14:56
When we sign up to the MG we also sign up to uphold the ethos of the community. Mike had useful information to provide and the way he went around was always aimed at being controversial and he also wanted to draw the maximum response to the blogs he posted. His aim here, as I understood it, was to drive traffic to his site via various SEO techniques he chose to employ.

Did he add value at times? Sure. Did he do it in a way that served the community and took us in a direction that was to our highest benefit? Not always, for me. From John's post I gather he was approached and given a "yello card". He chose to fly in the face of that and received the consequences of his choice.

I trust we can all learn from this and say what we have to say in a way that leaves the possibility of discussion open and so that other members can engage and walk away with more that they arrived with.

Being more open builds the sense of closeness of the community and has a positive impact on trust. More trust equals more business and that is why we are all here?
Gavin Cumming commented: Sunday, 30 November 2008 13:20
Mike may have been controversial at times but he always had a strong message to give.

As Andre says, "We are in an electronic era now more than ever, don't go backwards" Hell, isn't that exactly what Mike tried, several times, to tell us all!

Every MG who is 'serious' about their business could learn a huge amout from talking to Mike and 'reading' his blog ideas.

I think the way this has been handled is quite pitiful, and potentially damaging to this site.

In Mikes words, "Wake up and smell the Blogs!"
Debbie Wiblin commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 22:37
I echo what Anil, Andre, Myles,Ian and Herman have to say! I have decided not to put it in my own words as then the "attacking party" will turn this blog into a circus!

Debbie
John Raath commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 21:09
Thanks for the many people who have messaged and called me in the last few days supporting the MyGenius ethos. And as I've always said, it's not about John or Doug or Andre or Anil for that matter....it's about a community, an ethos and a very important reason for all of us being here - to get ahead with our business projects - and what people are telling me is that support, encouragement and sharing useful ideas is what really counts. I make it my business, every day, to deliver that to as many people on MyGenius as I can. Many others do exactly the same and more!

Hugh - you make a great point! Andre thanks for your constant flow of new ideas, Anil for your wisdom and Myles for your insights....they are always appreciated....and I know I don't need to tell you that!

We're brewing up some great new inititives for the new year - and those who attended the recent think-tank will know - it's mostly about getting your brand out there - big time!!


Hugh Knight commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 18:10
Just a thought
Part of the problem/situation?
Perhaps we are used to the South African tradition of needing structures, rules, regulations and their enforcement etc
and then find it strange and unnerving in an environment which is very unstructured and laissez faire

Andre Besselaar commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 17:52
Open letter to Doug and John:

__________________________________________________________________________

I am extremely disappointed in the development that a member can just be chucked out without notification, the negative and undignified/unprofessional attack of what I felt was undeserved on Mike by management ( a big surprise) and MG members (an even bigger surprise as I rated some very highly indeed.)

So now another business orientated figure gone, (Cross reference Walter Pike, Mike Said and others).

Perhaps the site is aimed at the non business community after all and those that will rather engage in personal attacks.(I am not aware that they got any PM's regarding their "contributions")

Also the fact that roadshow discussions MUST take place in face to face meetings, involving a very few members have left me with the same conclusion as Mike. MG will not survive going on like this. We are in an electronic era now more than ever, don't go backwards. This forum is ideal for discussing and pumping out ideas, other sites do, why not MG?

I now must conclude that alternative views, eccentricity and lively debate is not part of what MG wants to achieve, well I actually don't really know what they want anymore.

Further more, I have sent a lot, and I meant a lot of ideas through to D&J, none has been implemented to this day, discussed in this community etc. I sent them unconditionally, all of them were original and I suppose my intellectual property. I thought that MG would benefit and of course I would benefit then as well.

I have drawn up an entire list of changes, compared to other sites with new ideas, suggestions as well as gone to the trouble to build mock-up looks for discussion online to do my bit for MG to aid D&J to make the quick changes now needed.

It seems as if I wasted my time as Mike would have been a great contributor, negative or not to these ideas as others pointed out. I fear that these ideas will not suit MG at this point in time and therefore would not want to waste anybodies time here with my (well researched) drivel.

I will now wait and see and become a background reader of MG now and again until management makes it clear as to what they exactly want and communicate this , online, via this site to members.

To those of you that PMed me regarding my contributions, a big thank you, it kept me going (Sadly D&J never encouraged me but will discourage Mike etc.)

To those of you that felt my blogs worthless, boring and unneeded, I apologize for wasting your time.

Be assured that I will still be a MG member, (so if my profile suddenly disappears, it was not me that initiated it) but also understand that I am a member because of who is on the site. My input takes me a lot of time and right now I should rather be investing my time here in Switzerland and in SA with other MG members offline more constructively.

Have a great Xmas and a happy new year everybody!

Kind Regards

Andre Besselaar



Hugh Knight commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 16:21
We need to clarify with Doug and John the medium for two way communication with them - blog or the feedback lin/box?
Blogs, most of the time, have not drawn much response.
Laissez faire is fine, but total silence can make one feel ignored
Hermann Funk commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 13:59
Mike may have been provocative, but the way he handled some of the responses that were very close to insulting, showed maturity on his side.

Anil Salick commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 10:54
My points to consider:
1. Maybe we need to be reminded of the rules and ethos again. There seems to be a moderation committee which has a flag system (perhaps an analogy or maybe real).

2. I sustain that there should be rules and an ethos; and that this "committee" makes a call/ which may not be open to a democratic vote. We are however allowed to agree or disagree.

3. Is there an appeals process? Is there then a 'come back' process that may be conditional if someone has a change of heart/ sorrow?

4. Can the person who seems to be going "over the top" be warned clearly beforehand, so that there is management is protected.

5. There should also be responsibility placed on those who also pressed his buttons, who were way too emotional, short, rude and intolerant. Many take things personally and not professionally on this site.

6. John and Doug have not been as interactive with blog presence for a while, meaning getting involved in issues raised. Maybe they can explain how they view there role.

Clearly some of us are disenchanted by the process taken above in the case of Mike. I am keen on reconsidering my membership if I don't feel satisfied.


Hermann Funk commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 10:09
John, you suggest that we engage each other, yet when I requested a comment concerning GIBS using MG as a case study on how not to run a web community, there was silence.

And for those who only want to look and "trade" in positivity, you are living in the clouds. Life is just not like that.

Also consider that those who push your buttons often serve an important purpose.

This site has become as sensitive as our ruling party.


Ian Franks commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 08:36
Mike was over the top and it sounds like he was asked to tone it down, before the red card. We do need diversity here but not at the expense of negativity.
I have done business with Mike and found him to be straight forward and honest in dealing with him. I would hope to do more business with him.
I hope that he does come back and add to the diversity.
Myles Hopkins commented: Saturday, 29 November 2008 07:35
I have to state that I do not agree with this at all.

Yes, Mike was controversial and over the top.

Yes, Mike should more than likely not have openly and directly attacked the MG Site and the owners.

On the other hand ................

This is a site where the main purpose is collaboration. Mike has shared a great deal of valuable information and insight with all of us. This is far more than what 99% of the other members of MG have done.

What message are we trying to create here - is it a message that says you cannot blog openly on this site? Is it a message that says that you cannot challenge the MG site? I have seen many other blog sites and let me tell you they are a great deal more vicious than MG. I was once asked to start a blog on Moneyweb which I did. I soon stopped though because the absolute filth and hatred that appeared on that blog did nothing for business collaboration.

It is different on MG. Most of us are more respectful of each other and we are a real community. It really concerns me that Mike has been booted. I am not so sure what happened when Walter originally left MG but it would seem that one needs to be careful about criticising the MG site as your days may then be numbered.

I for one will be sending a PM to John requesting that Mike be reinstated. If this does not happen, then I will be reviewing my own membership of MG. We live in an open-source and collaborative world and we need the controversial citizens as much as we need the solid citizens.

Please have a great weekend.

John Raath commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 23:32
The moderation panel met today and having produced a yellow card, decided a red card was was also needed. I agreed with them.

There's only one focus on this site - as we engage with one another, collaborate, seek opportunities, share ideas - the ethos that guides this is key. We're here to support one another! It's that simple!
Yvonne van Eck commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 22:48
Niki - I'm with you! will definitely not shed any tears and Im sure that will not come as a shock to anyone....

at least we can now built a positive community - build on a strong foundation with people who really want to be here

let's leave the negativity behind and build a strong and positive community.... building and supporting people and busineses... after all, is that not what MG is all about?....
Anton Dique commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 19:40
Oops... Somebody is going to sue somebody :-D I'm going to sit back and watch this movie for a few weeks
Anil Salick commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 18:38
Just spoke to Mike. He is in the Kruger National Park. He was very surprised about the matter above.

He asked that I confirm that he did not remove his profile; and that it was management.

(On a personal note, I read Mike incorrectly a few months ago. I took the time to allow him his space to be different; and we have always been amicable and reasonable with each other. Don't allow the written word to mislead you...he is a good chap)
Niki Stevens commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 18:32
I for one don't miss his sarcasm and negativity
Anil Salick commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 18:26
I am having Mike withdrawals already.
Andre Besselaar commented: Friday, 28 November 2008 18:09
You got to be kidding!

Now it all depends on whether Mike took off or management took it off.

Clarity please D&J?

Thanks